42 replies to this topic

[RedInferno]

tntoak, on Nov 12 2005, 06:50 PM, said:

That's the same argument people like Fred Phelps use to justify killing physicians who perform abortions. It's also the same argument fundamentalist Muslims use to justify attacking hotels, civilians, etc. The only difference is that the Muslims replace "God" with "Allah". It's a very dangerous argument, because it inevitably gets twisted to promote actions that the Bible, Ten Commandments, etc. specifically forbid and/or prohibit.
God doesn't make societies and their laws. When the US was created, the majority of the founding fathers were Deists - they believed in a higher power, but not necessarily the Christian image of "God". That's why the Declaration of Independence refers to a "Creator", a general term for a higher power, instead of a specific reference such as "God" or "Jesus". The foundations for the formation of the US weren't rooted in religious doctrine, as you already have numerous religious groups here in the colonies when the Declaration and later the Constitution were created - by the men present in those meetings. In fact, the founding fathers created the 1st Amendment in direct response to the religious persecution people of many faith systems faced before they left for the colonies and a new life.

You have also contradicted yourself with your statements. You say that God creates societies, then you say that "Those tribes don't know they are sinning.". If God created that society AND its laws, wouldn't they know that by default? You make a blanket statement, then jettison out a bunch of contradictory examples by pleading ignorance on their part.
(I should point out that I debated in college, so a lot of this is being argued because it's fun, not because I necessarily agree with the positions. I just like to see how well developed people's views are)

If God made the society he is choosing not to do anything. Many of the voodoo practces and such is where God allows satan to control them instead. God makes societies, adn the reason why they are not being punished is because he is choosing in his will not to do anything. Those people don't know him, that's why we have missionaries and such. They don't know better.

BlueScreenOfDeath, on Nov 12 2005, 11:41 PM, said:

Heres something to consider:

If we take god out of the picture, take society and our 'laws' out then we got survivalism. Then Killing for our own survival isnt wrong . If its survival of the fittest and best then it could be right, and then we have no morality.

i think in a way we "learn" what is wrong and right from society and what they consider right and wrong behavior. Any deviation from that social Norm then its either abnormal or socially not acceptable.

So let's say I was a cannabal. If I came to the US and startyed practicing my societies' religion, would I get arrested? Surely. Therefore not every single moral issue comes from society. I might not know killing is wrong, in my religion it is a sacrifice. Why would i get arrested for something i believ is right? In my society, people and everyone says it is okay. Because of what they are worshipping they feel it is okay, and the person they are worshipping is not God. God surely did not allow the killing of humans for sacrifices and meat. Those societies don't know better, to them Satan or whoever they worship is their god. They have no knowlegde. Therefore, you are somewhat correct BSOD, they don't know.

Edited by RedInferno, 14 November 2005 - 01:55 AM.

[tntoak]

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If God made the society he is choosing not to do anything. Many of the voodoo practces and such is where God allows satan to control them instead. God makes societies, adn the reason why they are not being punished is because he is choosing in his will not to do anything. Those people don't know him, that's why we have missionaries and such. They don't know better.

That's a prime example of an Appeal to Belief fallacy - stating that because many people believe in God, that this must be the case. For people who do not believe in the Judeo-Christian god, your argument holds no weight whatsoever. They probably think the same of you ("they don't know") that you think of them.

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So let's say I was a cannabal. If I came to the US and startyed practicing my societies' religion, would I get arrested? Surely. Therefore not every single moral issue comes from society. I might not know killing is wrong, in my religion it is a sacrifice. Why would i get arrested for something i believ is right? In my society, people and everyone says it is okay. Because of what they are worshipping they feel it is okay, and the person they are worshipping is not God. God surely did not allow the killing of humans for sacrifices and meat. Those societies don't know better, to them Satan or whoever they worship is their god. They have no knowlegde. Therefore, you are somewhat correct BSOD, they don't know.

This is a Fallacy of Exclusion

As I stated earlier, the morals an individual holds as true are based on social, religious, AND cultural conditions. In your example above, you try to use the religious beliefs as sole justification to the exclusion of the cultural and societal norms. It's also an complex cause fallacy, as it implies that the original argument was that society alone determines moral values.

Not only does your argument ignore other contributing factors, but it operates in violation of the laws of the US. There have been numerous rulings in our courts regarding the right to hold certain religious practices, using the 1st Amendment as justification. The principle that has been consistently upheld is that religious practices are permissable, as long as they do not violate other laws of the nation. The only exception is that certain Native American groups are permitted to use peyote in their religious exercises.

Edited by tntoak, 14 November 2005 - 03:34 AM.

[BlueScreenOfDeath]

woot i learned all about fallacy in critical thinking class very nice point tntoak

[RedInferno]

tntoak, on Nov 13 2005, 09:32 PM, said:

That's a prime example of an Appeal to Belief fallacy - stating that because many people believe in God, that this must be the case. For people who do not believe in the Judeo-Christian god, your argument holds no weight whatsoever. They probably think the same of you ("they don't know") that you think of them.
This is a Fallacy of Exclusion

Well, there I can't change their minds. They can believe what they will.

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As I stated earlier, the morals an individual holds as true are based on social, religious, AND cultural conditions. In your example above, you try to use the religious beliefs as sole justification to the exclusion of the cultural and societal norms. It's also an complex cause fallacy, as it implies that the original argument was that society alone determines moral values.

Not only does your argument ignore other contributing factors, but it operates in violation of the laws of the US. There have been numerous rulings in our courts regarding the right to hold certain religious practices, using the 1st Amendment as justification. The principle that has been consistently upheld is that religious practices are permissable, as long as they do not violate other laws of the nation. The only exception is that certain Native American groups are permitted to use peyote in their religious exercises.

There may have been court rulings, but where has the supremem court ever ruled to al,low cannabilism? Is that permissible then?

Edited by RedInferno, 14 November 2005 - 05:16 PM.

[ShadowFox]

Cannabalism is an act of killing/murder unless you are talking about eating the deceased in which case your religion has some SERIOUS issues and need to be umm exicuted before they start going insane and attacking innocent people. So in which case, if you reside in the US... Murder is against the law.

[RedInferno]

Exactly, but tntoak seems to think there are supremem court rulings that would allow religious practices. Animal sacrifice, maybe. Human sacrifice, definitely not. tntoak, do you really think the government would allow this then?

[gamer_pro_2000]

I believe that God set the rules and guildlines of the world on it creation. The very founding of the United States was done by Christian men. Sure, we learn things from experience and such, but everything springboards off of the rules and guildlines in the Bible. Whether you agree with it or not, you have to agree that it does found this country. I think that's why this country is falling apart. The more and more we pull away the foundation, the more and more we are second guessing our "morals" of right and wrong. Is it alright to allow abortion? Is it as bad as killing a person with a gun? Were do you draw the line without absolute sets of rules and guildlines? The rules in the Bible are very clear and consise. There is very little room for debate. I believe in God and the Savior, Jesus Christ. I'm sorry if you don't agree with that and I'm not going to try and force you to believe it. You all are entitled to make decisions on what you believe, and if you don't believe in God, then you don't. All I'm saying is, if you don't have definite rules and guildlines, where do you draw the line on right and wrong. If you say killing is bad, then abortion has to be bad, there is no middle ground. There are ppl that stand against gay marriages, but they say they don't care, as long as they aren't affected. That in itself is crap. Everyday, the accepting of this will affect you, one way or another. You can't agree to disagree on some things. Somewhere, you need to put things to a stop. I think that there is no other plausible explanation for the creation of this tiny planet, other than God creating it. Certainly not Evolution. What a load of crap it is. If anyone wants, I can expand on this with a paper I wrote on the subject.

Edited by gamer_pro_2000, 15 November 2005 - 03:02 AM.

[Visentinel]

I believe right and wrong is flux, as you grow up to be a kid you take right and wrong as a simple " to do or not to do " but as you grow up further something like killing is a matter of survival, Self preservation can drive you to kill even if you thought you could never do it.

Stealing is wrong, but people have done it for all sorts of reasons, such as hunger or the thrill or to become rich a le bank Vault.

Some people kill for a living, such as Chicken growers, then again its wrong to kill your pet... ? everything is Flux.

Edited by Visentinel, 15 November 2005 - 10:08 AM.

[tntoak]

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Exactly, but tntoak seems to think there are supremem court rulings that would allow religious practices. Animal sacrifice, maybe. Human sacrifice, definitely not. tntoak, do you really think the government would allow this then?

Here's what I actually said:

Quote

There have been numerous rulings in our courts regarding the right to hold certain religious practices, using the 1st Amendment as justification. The principle that has been consistently upheld is that religious practices are permissable, as long as they do not violate other laws of the nation. The only exception is that certain Native American groups are permitted to use peyote in their religious exercises.

You clearly misread my post. I said that the courts have consistently ruled in favor of religious practices, providing that the do not violate any other laws (cannibalism wouldn't be permissable under this). I also said that the ONLY exception is the ruling allowing certain Native American groups to use peyote in their ceremonies. I'm not sure how you took my remarks and interpreted them to imply that cannibalism would be allowed in the United States.

[clarky3429]

gamer_pro_2000, on Nov 15 2005, 01:59 PM, said:

I believe that God set the rules and guildlines of the world on it creation. The very founding of the United States was done by Christian men. Sure, we learn things from experience and such, but everything springboards off of the rules and guildlines in the Bible. Whether you agree with it or not, you have to agree that it does found this country. I think that's why this country is falling apart. The more and more we pull away the foundation, the more and more we are second guessing our "morals" of right and wrong. Is it alright to allow abortion? Is it as bad as killing a person with a gun? Were do you draw the line without absolute sets of rules and guildlines? The rules in the Bible are very clear and consise. There is very little room for debate. I believe in God and the Savior, Jesus Christ. I'm sorry if you don't agree with that and I'm not going to try and force you to believe it. You all are entitled to make decisions on what you believe, and if you don't believe in God, then you don't. All I'm saying is, if you don't have definite rules and guildlines, where do you draw the line on right and wrong. If you say killing is bad, then abortion has to be bad, there is no middle ground. There are ppl that stand against gay marriages, but they say they don't care, as long as they aren't affected. That in itself is crap. Everyday, the accepting of this will affect you, one way or another. You can't agree to disagree on some things. Somewhere, you need to put things to a stop. I think that there is no other plausible explanation for the creation of this tiny planet, other than God creating it. Certainly not Evolution. What a load of crap it is. If anyone wants, I can expand on this with a paper I wrote on the subject.

i share this opinion. even if you are not a Christian, doesnt mean that many of the things stated in the Bible shouldnt apply for you, many things are that of being a good person. Honesty, self-control, forgiving, generousity, arnt those values that everyone should hold??

[RedInferno]

tntoak, on Nov 16 2005, 01:24 AM, said:

Here's what I actually said:
You clearly misread my post. I said that the courts have consistently ruled in favor of religious practices, providing that the do not violate any other laws (cannibalism wouldn't be permissable under this). I also said that the ONLY exception is the ruling allowing certain Native American groups to use peyote in their ceremonies. I'm not sure how you took my remarks and interpreted them to imply that cannibalism would be allowed in the United States.

THen what about freedom of religion? If that is the case in this country why would they say that you can practice that without VIOLAION of the nation's laws? That is a hindrance of our rights. Please explain.

clarky3429, on Nov 16 2005, 04:51 AM, said:

i share this opinion. even if you are not a Christian, doesnt mean that many of the things stated in the Bible shouldnt apply for you, many things are that of being a good person. Honesty, self-control, forgiving, generousity, arnt those values that everyone should hold??

Correct...those things are innate...we know its good to do, we're born with it. There is absolute morality in my opinion for things such as these.

[tntoak]

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THen what about freedom of religion? If that is the case in this country why would they say that you can practice that without VIOLAION of the nation's laws? That is a hindrance of our rights. Please explain.

It's not a hindrance of our rights, and the Supreme Court has consistently ruled as such. The reason the peyote case is the lone exceptionis because unlike your cannibalism example, the ingestion of peyote is not harmful to others. For example, the Courts have allowed groups such as the KKK to hols public demonstrations promoting their ideals - to a point. If such a group were to begin to incite others to kill certain people, then it crosses into "incitement to commit a crime", which is not a protected form of speech. The same goes for religious practices. Burning suspected witches at the stake would not be permissable today, for those same reasons.

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Correct...those things are innate...we know its good to do, we're born with it. There is absolute morality in my opinion for things such as these.

Once again, you're basing your opinion on YOUR values. The United States is one of the most regressive societies in many levels. Nations such as Holland, Sweden give their citizenry much more leeway in terms of self-expression, allowable content on the airwaves, legalized euthaniasia, consumption of marijuana/heroin, etc. Other nations allow content on their public (ie. broadcast) airwaves, that the FCC would have a fit over. For example, in the UK there is a show called "Naked News" where the news anchors (all female) strip over the course of the show. This is perfectly acceptable in the UK, but here in the states people would rupture an aneurysm over it. It's because they view issues such as nudity differently than we do. Many european nations have a much lower drinking age than the United States, if they have one at all. It's because they do not place the "taboo" label on the consumption of such products that many people in America do.

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Honesty, self-control, forgiving, generousity, arnt those values that everyone should hold??

Also, values and morals are not one and the same. Values are items whose relative worth can change based upon the specific context you are analyzing them in. For example, you might place honesty as your primary value. However, if that honesty could cause harm to a group of people, you might just reassess where honesty is placed in that context. This shift is independent from the social, cultural, and religious factors that establish one's moral code. Morals, on the other hand, are based in part upon the value hierarchy one holds, but once set are unchanging.

[ShadowFox]

Good points tntoak.

Being honest is important, whether it hurts or not, sometimes the truth hurts, either way you shouldn't go around NOT telling the truth or ommiting things because you think it's going to hurt someone's feelings. Take it as constructive critism and move on, life's rough and things are only going to get tougher. You might as well get use to the harsh climates.

Edited by ShadowFox, 17 November 2005 - 07:05 PM.

[RedInferno]

Sahdow...what/who are you talking about/referring to? Not sure if you're telling him or responding to what he said.

Edited by RedInferno, 17 November 2005 - 06:44 PM.

[ShadowFox]

I said nice points, then I went on to talk about how being honest is important and how you should be honest despite the fact that it could hurt someone.

There... edited for better understanding